Looks like a tech journalist is echoing many of the thoughts many of us already know.... http://techcrunch.com/2012/07/08/8-ways-mobile-developers-can-make-the-most-money-on-their-apps/ And, the same ideas are validated in the info graphic @GoNorthWest shared in this post: http://www.buzztouch.com/forum/thread.php?tid=DC9E865CF2166882AC8C720

"What you charge for an app should be based largely on how users engage with it." Probably the best advice in that article! Mark

Find this very interesting! I new thought these stats would be that different between iOS and Android...

My opinion: Almost NOBODY makes lots of money making apps for themselves. Some money, sure. Living, career type money, very very few. But, there are thousands of folks making apps for others and nearly all of them get paid very very well. If you want to make a living doing this, learn how to... a) Help folks understand the process. This site gives you a good opportunity to help lots of people understand the basics. b) Look for opportunities in the posts and the dialogue. You'll be surprised at how much opportunity arrises from helping folks. c) Formalize a process for yourself. It may should something like "I dont' take development work for less than $300" or whatever your minimum project is. You will get the type of work you look for and ask for. Big, small, medium. But..you'll have a hard time figuring out where the opportunities are without exposing yourself to folks making apps, or trying to make apps. My two cents....worth at least a quarter ;-)

Yeh, i have discovered that you will make more money for making apps for others... its just the advertising and getting the word out there, that you are willing to do that for others. if you get what i mean?

V. Interesting article on the business aspects of app development, thanks for sharing. I currently run three companies, I started my first at 22yrs old with enough to survive for three months -it's now in its tenth year- and I've learned a couple of things along the way. The most important principle that I've acquired is that there is no such thing as 'the pot of gold'. In other words, I'm pretty sure that none of us here are going to develop Angry Birds, and if you want to go about playing the odds on developing 'the next big app', you'd be better off buying lottery tickets and saving yourself the work element. Having said that, I think it is possible to make some money developing for yourself, it's just a question of dialing back on any get-rich-quick schemes and approaching your endeavors with a healthy dose of realism and, again, the most important learning I've had in this area is investment vs reward. Let me give you an example from one of my own businesses: We launched a major new product line that was five years in development and it ate up years of my twenties when I could have been having fun night-clubbing and getting laid, but I remained focused on the reward. In upfront cash costs & time (both my own and staff etc.) the initial investment came close to $500,000 (I'm converting there for our US friends - UKP £280,000 was the cost). The prototype went to distributors across the UK, USA & Canada, everyone was incredibly enthused and a round of re-seller contracts took place, sales projections that came back showed me a very healthy profit in the first year. The products came out and customers were thrilled - great testimonials, value for money etc. etc. That was three years ago and to date we've made back $60,000 of that half-mil. In other words, a terminal disaster. Without going into the exact reasons for why this failed so badly (and there are some great lessons there, but the global downturn also played a really big part) the big learning that I had was that the scale of the failure was of course pegged to the investment in a way that it didn't need to be. 1) five years dev. 2) massive cash float 3) Re-inventing the wheel to create a totally different product in the marketplace. Looking back on it, none of that was absolutely necessary and when the disappointment came, it was directly proportional. Now if I said I gave over a month to it, spent $10,000 and made the 60k - that doesn't sound too bad does it? It was chasing the 2mil that created the problem. The same principle should apply to anything, including app development: You have a great idea, you spend time thinking about it and all the awesome things that it's going to do, you start developing and as you go along you see modifications and ways to improve it that you implement. It strikes you that a particular feature would really lift it and you spend time learning how to build and integrate that feature, searching forums and troubleshooting - you've nearly got it, but it doesn't quite work. You keep ploughing and eventually you crack it. Before you know it weeks have flown by, but you're done and you're really happy with the results. Up on the App Store! It makes you back say, 2k, and you can't help feeling pretty gutted. Now, let's say you had the same idea, but didn't run away with yourself, kept it to the most basic implementation of the idea, didn't think up all sorts of extra features, didn't tell yourself how much more awesome it could be and how many more downloads you'll get as a result and it takes you six days to complete. Up on the App store and you make....1k. Now you might say but all that extra attention doubled my money, got me an additional one 1k; to which I would say 'yeah but in that time you could have had another ten 1k apps out'. Be disciplined, be strict and if you anticipate low return you'll never be disappointed so long as you haven't invested too much. Scale that up and you've got a business. That's my two cents anyway.

@eespverbatim, great post, thanks.

Agreed @david and @eespverbatim .. very interesting indeed. Building a great portfolio is important even if the app is not performing to expectations. Ranking, design and functionality will pull new/potential customers who are more than willing to pay good $$ for an app.. Nice post

Another interesting article is Inside the App Economy http://www.cultofmac.com/175065/inside-the-app-economy-making-big-money-is-far-from-a-sure-thing/ A telling paragraph is: "On average, iOS is the most expensive mobile platform for developers. It’s the second most profitable mobile platform overall behind RIM’s BlackBerry. One in three mobile developers can’t earn enough money to living from the apps that they produce." Fred

WOW...I can't say that I agree with this in any way. The income potential is far stronger then any other market and can be done simply with a computer and a phone. I think of it like this....I have little to NO overhead. I can charge for the app. I can charge for the advertising. I can charge for the iAds ad itself. What other market can you triple charge for a product and do so, with again (@Fred CultofMac is wrong AGAIN...what cost could there be for iOS other then the devices, a computer, and the $99 dev account), NO OVERHEAD! I'm sorry but if anyone isn't making good money here they need to examine their product and their sales ability. I've never met anyone in the development world that could hold gross on their product and I am a 3rd generation com sci major. If Angry Birds is your goal then YES, that is lofty and almost difficult to achieve, but who on here has multiple programmers and designers on payroll? I understand that Angry Birds is the pinnacle for app success, but nobody is running that kind of show on Buzztouch, so why use that as a comparison. - I remember back in the 90's when you could ask a person, "Do you have a website," and they would look at you with glassy eyes.... - I remember back in the early 2000's when you could ask a person, "Do you have Facebook," and they would look at you with glassy eyes... - NOW if you ask a person, "Do you have an App," and they look at you with glassy eyes. Having a personal or business app is 1 to 2 years from as common as have the above examples. This is a HUGE cash flow trend. Am I all alone in this assertion? One BIG thing that people are missing is that developers are NOT salesman just as salesman are NOT developers. I feel within my sixth month development window I should be able to gross about $6,000 per month, and this is all done in my time after I work. I believe SO strongly that I will be leaving my job within this year where I make $100,000 a year. I am not bragging by ANY means, just want to show some positive thinking for the other readers of this forum and to have faith in the income potential. I don't think that $6,000 is a large sum of money, but certainly better than the negative tone that some of these post left me feeling. Just my opinion, thank you. @eespverbatim I am sure glad Steve Jobs, in the early stages of Apple Computers, did NOT have the same defeatist attitude you seem to hold as a badge of honor. LOW EXPECTATIONS OF YOURSELF and your work... I am in complete contrast with your business design. I prefer quality over quantity and would rather be proud of my work than make a few extra dollars. Look at the very company most of us model ourselves after... Apple, and not one thing about them coincides with that idea. Please Buzztouch community, don't get mad at me for saying this, but that is the Android business model - forget quality, just pump out as many pieces of plastic crap that we can for nominal profits... such a flawed concept. Again, just my opinion, but one that I have modeled my life after and it has served me well.

@Isillis81, the overhead referred to is the time it takes to become a competent developer for the OS. Cult-of-Mac just posted the article. The excerpt is just to let you know that there's more there worth reading. Fred

@fred anything in life that is worth having takes time. Cult of Mac are morons that write about things they can not do....like most blog website. Just ignorant rhetoric.

Again they didn't write the article. Its actually a very good article, worth reading. Fred

@Fred I will read but you realize Ryan Faas writes for Cult of Mac?

Didn't realize Cult of Mac wrote a anything much. Mostly links to other stories. Perhaps I miss that because if their blog snippets and title is interesting that I usually go to the source since most bloggers don't put in the effort to truly understand the original article. But you do have a good I point regarding Cult of Mac, it's mostly a vehicle to sell their products, but I do find it useful to find interesting articles. But I'm also very aware of their agenda. Fred

@lsills81: Your enthusiasm is awesome, good stuff. I don't think the posts were intentionally negative, I know mine was not. You make some great points about having some success earning money with your current methods and this is great. The point I was trying to make is that MOST folks don't necessarily find the marketing, advertising, and exposure opportunities that it takes to propel an app to "the top of the list", regardless of how well they've executed on their idea. It's very very tough to get enough exposure to for an app to earn a genuine living. However, afters seeing many many thousands of aspiring devs. earn good $ helping others develop their ideas, it's logical to conclude that doing "dev work" for folks can produce some good income without having to compete for the marketing required by an Angry Birds. As for using Angry Birds as a comparison, I think it's just a good way to communicate the idea of a "big, whopping success app." Keep up the dialogue :-)

Thanks David, great read. IMO that part that really takes the most time in this whole APP Building process isn't BT or code anymore- It's the graphics. I'm spending WAY more time in Photoshop than Xcode or Eclipse of late. I used to just consider graphics part of the game with the app. Figured I would clean up a few logos, resize them, maybe add some flare and spend a few hours at most dealing with graphics... Instead people want me to start projects and they have NO graphics/logos or anything that is usable. And for sure not RETINA display friendly. I'm having to pilfer their websites for usable graphics and end up spending way more time dealing with this area. I'm making a much bigger emphasis on graphics and clearly distinguishing those charges from the APP Development charges going forward..... I would take more projects if I could keep up with the graphics side better!

Thanks a lot to eespverbatim for sharing his story. It takes a lot more courage to talk about things that did not go according to our plans then to be overly optimistic. I seem to remember that Big Steve was kicked out of his own company and I bet he did not consider that a success. I have read that was actually that very episode that turned his life around. That is a common theme in many life stories of industry leaders. This thread has been priceless in focusing my mind on keeping development costs low, and developments time in check. Optimism is always a winning attribute but there is nothing like an (hopefully occasional) failure to keep you VERY focused. Thanks to all of you for sharing.

@magister: thank you for your generous sentiment. I posted off the top of my head and from my own experience, in the aspiration that sharing some of my experience may be helpful to others. @david: Of course you are right in your interpretation of invoking 'angry birds', exaggerating the point to make the point. I posted with the intention of being positive, you will all notice that I prefaced my remarks with "I think it is possible to make some money developing for yourself" in order to counterpoint the thrust of the article that David raised for discussion and I remain convinced that this is the case. However I was attempting to emphasize the importance of sobriety and hardheadedness in a competitive marketplace. "Positive thinking" is an easy slogan that any moron can throw out, but means nothing - witness the thousands of unfortunate folks having their money taken by televangelists and charlatans everyday of the week without their lives being suddenly transformed. As I noted in my post, I have three companies and I shared a single story from one of those companies as I believe that it's in the failures that we learn most, it seemed a lesson relevant to the question at hand. Of course there have been many successes over the years (we wouldn't have lasted this long and through the recession if not), but blowing my own trumpet isn't something either useful to the discussion nor to BT users in general. @lsills81, like David I very much appreciate your enthusiasm and pride in your work, it is to be congratulated. I notice that there's a fair amount of contingency in your plans - are you making this $100,000 you mention? The very best of luck with leaving your job within the year - I managed to do that when I was twenty-one and I can confirm that it's very satisfying, if you keep up the positive outlook and energy, I'm sure that one day you'll join me in getting there - I'll be waiting for you buddy, and cheering all the way.

"I'm sure that one day you'll join me in getting there - I'll be waiting for you buddy, and cheering all the way." ----Best line in this entire thread (@eespverbatim, previous post) It's my opinion that MOST of use aspire to do "our own thing" for a living. "Our own thing" could be creating apps for ourselves to sell and support us, creating apps for others to do the same thing, or to create full-blown companies with employees, customers, etc, etc. The difference between folks that aspire to do these kinds of things, (the steps it takes to become independent of an employer, layoffs, pay cuts, and other super tough stuff) and the folks that ACTUALLY DO THEM is huge. This BT community is turning into a very large group of DOERS, not dreamers - big difference. I'm especially proud of this fact. Like @eespverbatim, and countless others on this site, I've had my share of failures. It's just kinda part of it. I no longer consider something I've poured my heart-and-soul into (and money), that doesn't "succeed", to be a "failure". I now consider EVERYTHING I do to be just a part of the process. Some things work well, others do not. Sticking with it, doing what you enjoy, and focussing on what you love, regardless of what that is, WILL GET YOU THERE. It may take time but it will happen. I worked on BT day and night for over a year before showing or telling anyone what I was up to. I literally told people "you wouldn't understand" because I knew they wouldn't. Heck, the App Store barely existed, Android was only an idea and people laughed at the notion of a tablet. I also knew my ambitious "project" would turn into an award winning capstone project at the university I was studying at. The secret plan did not work from the beginning, it was very broken, complicated, too tough to understand. That didn't matter, I knew these things were temporary. I was not focussed on how it could make money. I was focussed on how it could help people do something they really wanted to do - make mobile software. I've been iterating ever since. Sometimes these iterations produce things useful to the user, sometimes not. I don't worry too much about the things I do that DON'T work but I always learn from them. I don't worry too much about the haters, I don't worry too much about the tens of thousands of lines of code I've written then thrown away because I didn't complete it before iOS or Android changed (overnight sometimes), and I don't worry about folks that don't understand what I'm trying to do with BT. I try to only worry about the folks that DO understand what I'm trying to do and how I can help them succeed - the original plan has never changed. How it works has changed - LOTS. If you love the idea of owning the apps you make and selling them to folks, do that. Stick with it, you can make a living doing it. If you enjoy making apps for others, do that. Stick with it, you can make a living doing it. If you enjoy helping folks on our forums, do that. Stick with it, yup, you can make a living at that too (opportunities are abound if you look closely). Almost done rambling...I'm 100% convinced that every single person in our community can assemble their "own thing" in mobile if they so desire. This thing can be simple, complex, large, or small. And, if you really want it to, it can provide you a living, doing what you want, for who you want, when you want, and how you want. I happen to enjoy working out of a backpack in super random places all over the map. Heck, I code from a secret lair deep inside my sailboat for heavens sake! I'm literally sitting in a marina, as we speak, doing what I want. I would not be able to do this without persistance, commitment, help, lots of help, and FAILURE. I applaud all of you for sticking your neck out, defending your beliefs, and pursuing what you consider to be the "best way" to profit from mobile. And, I can't thank you enough for helping me help others - something I LOVE doing. Do YOUR thing, regardless of what it is, it will always be the best choice.

Just as i was reading this, a message popped up in the corner of my screen, its was from fivver. :)

I think its appropriate to round off this thread by recognizing that none of us would be on here jabbering away or making any money at all without @david's work & story. Buzztouch really is utterly awesome, and I pass it onto other people every week.

David, that post two posts up is AWESOME!!! I am really enjoying this thread, as I'm at a pivotal point in my own charge to break free from my employer. I want to throw out a question, after a little background. My goal is to earn a consistent $6 - $8k every month on my own. I LOVE building apps with Buzztouch, and am SO thankful I found this early, and I LOVE building custom mobile website. With my income goal, I know the math of achieving this if I charge, say, $500 for an app or mobile website; I know how many apps or mobile sites I need to build. I'll also build some of my own apps and monetize them through RevMob or iAds. I know the businesses I want to target - churches - because I think the understanding of how an app can help a church, especially one that has a podcast and knows about tech stuff but can't develop their own app is there. So here's my question. Especially for Apple, but for Android as well, would it be better to set up an LLC for myself, like Church Apps LLC or something, and develop all the apps under that developer account, or get each new client their own developer account?

So here's my question. Especially for Apple, but for Android as well, would it be better to set up an LLC for myself, like Church Apps LLC or something, and develop all the apps under that developer account, or get each new client their own developer account? If it's your app use your account. If I it's their app use their account. Apple actually requires the owner (publisher) to have their own account. Fred

Well, that's the thing Fred. Technically it could go either way. I would be owning and maintaining the app, but it would be about or based on a church or business.

I think you want your cake and eat it to. Who will make the final decision about the app, you or them? If I can do a better job with the app, who decides if I'm the developer, you or them? Who decides on the revenue split you or them? If you answer "you" to either question you're the owner. If you place the app in their account, they're the owner. When you sell them the app, will you give them the source code? Most importantly, will you give them a copy of the release certificate (Android)? Fred

@Daniel LaRusso, @Fred@mySkylla com This is a good discussion (about who's account the app should be under). My opinion is that it's ALWAYS a better plan to setup the client (each church in this case) with their own Apple and Google accounts. There are tons of reasons for this...here are some... a) Marketing: It's much better to display the Churches name in the store vs. the developers name. Clicking the developers name will show lots and lots of apps made by the same person, this is usually a bad thing when browsing apps, or so it appears. I don't care, Joe Public seems to. b) Apple and Google: They prefer it this way. I don't need to get into any details about this. c) Control / Image (yours): If you're going to allow any input from the Church, you'll end up doing something (in the app) you won't necessarily agree with. Example: Put this ugly image here even though I know you don't agree. Funny how that works when folks want your advise then insist on participating! Anyway, eventually, the ugly app (that you didn't design or manage completely) will be associated with you. Not good. Folks that are considering doing business with you will want some example work. Show them what you want, not everything you've ever done. You'll get better over time and you'll want to highlight your newest work, not your 10 year old ugly thing. LOL. d) End Game: All relationships end. When yours does with a paying customer (it will, they all do) it will be much easier to be "done" than to transfer ownership and it isn't fair to hold somebodies deliverable hostage when the relationship ends. e) Security: Your account is jeopardized. Hacked, changed, cancelled, etc. Imagine how bad it would be to have 50 apps suddenly not available. Yikes. f) Profit: It's one more thing you can "help" them with. Setting up each account takes time, experience, an understanding. Charge your client for this "account maintenance." Really, it's fair and they need the help. I'll stop there. There are justifiable reasons to keep all apps in your account, I just don't like them ;-)

@David, excellent points. Regarding d) End Game: All relationships end. When yours does with a paying customer (it will, they all do) it will be much easier to be "done" than to transfer ownership and it isn't fair to hold somebodies deliverable hostage when the relationship ends. This its super important because defining your relationship helps keep the boundaries clear and makes the eventual breakup easier, cleaner, less painful and most importantly less costly. I would says that it builds a better working relationship, but my experience is that it's not necessarily so. Sometimes with certain clients you may wish to demand certain controls, or you might be wiser not to have them as a client. By not giving them their deliverables (source code, signing keys, access to control panel) you're blurring the line as to whether it's your app or their app. Of course if you make it clear that until the deliverable is paid for it's not delivered then that's OK. Just be clear. Fred

@Fred: Totally agree. It all depends on the expectation and the "promise." For sure this should be a clear understanding from the beginning. Well said.