Hello again, This topic is more of a question, or even a poll, than anything else. I hope, by introducing this topic, that I am not breaching the forum rules, and if so, please tell me immediately. I would like to talk about the iOS Jailbreak. Everyone has heard of it, and I wanted to know what Buzztouch TM think about it. Can it be discussed here? Can Buzztouch apps be hosted on Cydia Repos? Again, this is a very broad subject, I'm just interested in know what you all think of this.

My 2 cents. Jailbreaking is no longer necessary unless it leads to unlocking the phone. It used to be the case that some neat add-ons were available that improved iOS but I believe the only one worth having now is SBS Settings. For many the holy grail when JB'ing their phone is to get free apps, dare I say steal free apps. The games and utilities on the Cydia Repos are seldom of the quality of the ones you'd find in the App Store and are also usually ones that have no place in the App Store. I know there are some gems on there but I for one am no longer confident in the JB'ing community as you open you precious shiny iPhone up to all sorts of exploits. I have fixed friends kids phones after they installed apps from the Cydia Repos that have simply crashed their phone and required a restore (not by Apple of course since your warranty is now invalid!) or a fresh Jailbreak where you have to force iPad firmware into an iPhone, crazy stuff. There are developers on here that will have their paid apps available for free through Installous, that is bad crack in my books. JB'ing is of course covered by the DMCA but the ruling that passed it is due for renewal this year I think. I used to do it, still have for some friends with the purpose of unlocking their phone so they take abroad, I'm just not into or for it now.

Jailbreaking has been discussed several times on the Forum. I think by it's very nature the Forum is going to attract persons interested in jailbreaking. What decent developer doesn't want to look under the hood. As as app publisher you should be interest since there's a significant market that's only available thru jailbroken phones. I highly respect MacApple's opinions but I disagree regarding the usefulness of jailbreaking. I think it's highly useful and will become more useful as time goes by. I written a bit about this in MySkylla's Guide to Buzztouch: www.myskylla.wordpress.com Go to installing app on your iDevice. Fred

Fred What jailbreakers look under the hood? The only one 'under the hood' are people like Geohot and the dev team, very few others are interested. This is why when you Google jailbreaking the majority of posts are about things like installous and as for this great untapped market I beg to differ. The only apps that used to make money on these repos were things like modem utilities and the likes. What is useful about jail breaking now other than the ability to install ultrasnow to unlock? Not arguing with, just curious as to why you think it's going to increase in use when many others think the opposite since iOS is so complete now with out the missing functions we used to have to JB for.

I am very pleased to hear so much feedback. I am myself an avid 'jailbreaker', but for none of the reasons both of you talked of. The main reason why I jailbroke my iDevice is not free apps, I don't have any 'cracked' AppStore apps, its not themes nor tweaks. The thing that makes me love the jailbreak is the feeling that you can make a difference. The jailbreak community is small, and idevices are fairly modern. This allows user such as myself to create bash scripts, tweaks, and basically create our own iDevice. What difference with Linux, might you say ? Well, Linux programming / scripting / modding has become so advanced / complicated, that you spend more time learning and simply copying examples from internet than fully understanding them. That, is why I have jailbroken my device.

There are several anti-malware app that can be installed to jailbroken phone. In my blog I give reason #2 not to jailbreak your iPhone (when you read it you'll understand it's actually a reason to do so.) But basically as more people create their own apps and don't need or don't wish to publish thru the App Store $99/year then jailbreaking becomes a very useful tool. I understand lots of jailbreaking is about getting free apps, but the music industry has struggled with this issue and the general understanding is that the ability of some to avoid the copyright is greatlly outweighed by the increase in sales made possible by the same technology. Can't have your cake and eat it to. But jailbreaking also leads to innovation. Over 10 Chinese plus 1 million T-Mobile USA customers jailbreak so they can use an iPhone. Otherwise they wouldn't even be able to use the iPhone except by using another carrier that may not be available to them. They want their iPhone and they want it now. Fred

Your last paragraph Fred shows the main and most useful aspect is to use Ultrasn0w.

@Skyr0s, didn't see you last post till now, but I agree. Innovation for a product that's only a few years old is essential for Apple to survive. As much as Apple's against jailbreaking they face certain death if they could accomplish it. A review of open source technology would certainly confirm this point. Fred

That is a crazy comment Fred, Apple face certain death? OK.

It may sound crazy with Apple at it's pinnacle, but how many other companies have been laid under by their failure to innovate. The open source model is basically that no matter how gifted your company is there's some even more gifted. If you allow innovation you benefit, if you don't they will innovate outside your design and leave you irrelevant. I firmly belive open source has proven itself and don't believe Apple will be the exception. Fred

I think Fred has a point, that might be slightly badly said. I have been following the jailbreak community on a daily basis since September, and have noticed that Apple IS inspired by the jailbreak community. If you are not convinced, look at several examples: PhotoAlbums+ is a jailbreak tweak that allows the user to Edit / Add Photo albums. In IOS 5, Apple adds that feature. SBsettings enabled battery percentage + shortcuts and toggles. In IOS 5, Apple creates the notification center, and enables battery percentage. MusicBanners adds alerts for track changes, IOS 5 adds banners for more music info. I believe that Apple has stopped make jailbreaking illegal a priority for them.

@Skyr0s, this forum is essentially open source. Even if I'm slighty 'badly said' my point is enhanced by your input. But now to the topic of an app for your garden club. 15 members some with iDevices. You make an app. Cost $99/yr to you to allow the few member with iDevices to view. Solution: Sorry we don't support iDevices, or Simple instructions on jailbreaking. New member figures out how to take app viral amoung tulip garden club members. Result: app is exremely popular with Android users and iDevice users left in the cold and slowly they switch o Android until one day someone says BlackBerry (oops, meant to say Apple) is a failed OS.

I am totally agreeing with Fred, and sorry if I said you were "badly said" it wasn't ad hominem. Whatever the views, thanks for having shared them with me!

Hey, I appreciate the slightly bad, as I said your input enhanced my point, proving the open source model. I certainly know how little I know, and the more I learn the more I realize how little I know. I respect others input. I 'knew' Apple was benefiting from jailbreaking, but had no specific examples to point to since I don't follow the jailbreaking community. Your input is informative. Fred

OK, last word on this from me, getting out in the garden since the sun is out and the birds are singing. I have been jailbreaking phones since the 3g exploit first came out, I've added iPad basebands to iPhones and done the full works, still do for friends, I keep up with what is going on via RedmondPie, TUAW, The iPhone Dev team et al. As I mentioned in my first comment the only extensions that were ever of any real use to myself were the SBS settings and the tethering with 3g, even if that did make my phone heat up like a hot black brick. The notification center was in Android since day one, the JB community added it to iOS so did Apple copy the JB community or did they copy Android? Chances are they would have added it either way. Fred you seem to like saying without this or without that Apple will die, Apple made this new arena, Apple innovate in a way no other company does. To say they have a 'failure to innovate' I can only assume you are joking or just have deep rooted hatred for Apple, many Android fan boys do. I am not arguing the open source model, I'm all for it, it has pushed the boundaries and when I ran a box at home I was a redhat man, no complaints at all. Not a fan of windows at all. People always want to slate Apple and iTunes for being a walled garden and that the JB community open it up for all, this isn't always a good thing, opening up walled gardens that is. I'm not going to into the pro's and con's of this right now but have a look at this - http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2395401,00.asp - many folks, my lady, my mum and many others don't want a mini PC on their smartphone, they just want something that is easy to operate, navigate and just plain and simple works. Apple haven't released iOS as open source so it is never going to be open source. Moot point. The BIGGEST OS company in the world, in terms of installs is Microsoft Fred, they are not open source. I'm not going to say 100% hands down Apple did not take things from the JB folks, it's a given, that's how this big world works but in my experience, you are in the minority Skyr0s, the vast majority of JB'ers do so for reasons less honorable than your own. Either way, good chatting and Skyr0s you are a great addition to the community on here. Have a great day folks. Yir pal MacApple, who thinks it is good to talk.

Enjoy your sunshine my outdoors hike starts in two hours. I don't really dislike Apple as much as I like tweaking the nose of Apple users. I grant your points but feel that everyone is too quick to assume Apple is here to stay. Just a few years ago Japan, Inc. was taking over the world. I questioned that then and question Apple, Inc. now. Fred

I hear you buddy, enjoy a wee verbal joust with you from time to time. I'm all for Android and a strong Windows mobile, competition makes for a happy consumer. Ps Apple have cash reserves larger than the US Government coffers, they are safe for a couple more months. Have a good one mate!

i feel apple just wont do as well now steve jobs is gone sorry to say but it happened in the 80's when he was forced from the company he originally help create,it started to fail until his return again and i feel the company may well struggle again especialy as all of apples creations where esentially his own ideas and now that android devices are rapidly outselling apple devices and cost half the price oh and they dont levy fee's on app developers looking to help the app store grow. Having said all that im new to all this so im sure one of you will put me right hahahaha

about the only thing jail braking is really good for is to get truely "free unlimited" internet. (via tethering). The question as to whether this is leagl or ethical remains a source of debate. Personally, unlimited means just that, unlimited and i do not think that Verizon, ATT or anybody else will lose any money if a few people are using their phones to run their home networks. (My understanding is that Verizon feel that people who thether use an unfair amount of bandwidth via downloads and such. If that is true then why call it "unlimited"). I have used an air card and tried tethering and I can tell you that both are good in an emergency, but you really do not want to try and run a network, or even a desktop with either choice as a permanent fix...WAY too slow for my tastes. As for the rest of the "goodies" you can get by jailbreaking, I personally don't see the point. If you are too cheap to buy a .99 app, then what the heck are you doing with a smart phone in the first place? Besides, there are 100,000 fre apps out there that will do the same thing. Just me 2 cents.... I am sure i will get reamed for my lack of political corredctness...lol

BTW, usually @fred and I do not agree, but this quote from him... "The open source model is basically that no matter how gifted your company is there's some even more gifted. If you allow innovation you benefit, if you don't they will innovate outside your design and leave you irrelevant." ...is dead on. I am sure there was a company that made freakin awesome wagon wheels back when we used horses. My guess is that their wagon wheels were so good that they never thought to look into steam, gasoline, or any other means of moving something from one place to another. When cars came out, the "We're the Best" Wagon Wheel Company, Inc. went belly up due to a failure to innovate, retool, and provide what their customers decided they needed. I have been in business many years, and I can tell you that a successful business constantly listens to their customers for any rumor of change, and then adjusts as the change is needed.

Thanks for the shout out, I'm sure RIM & Yahoo wish you had been around a few years ago. Fred

Interesting discussion and I agree Apple needs to open iOS up a bit more. It's a shame that you need a mac just to develop for it.

This is a fantastic discussion, some really good points mentioned. I do think apple has laid the bricks and mortar for the smartphone industry, but has a real battle to maintain a large share for the next 10 yrs. I read an article stating that windows will become no. 2 by 2016 which could throw a spanner in the works. Ive owned a droid, iphone and windows phone and my honest opinion is: -iphone: Simple, marketable to masses but feels limited and a bit out dated -android: Innovative enough to change dynamically with market demands for long-term future -windows: A little foreign and buggy at first but an absolute pleasure to use. The way apps are presented and integrate with the phone can't matched by iphone or droids. Wasn't trying to sidetrack the convo just point out how fast things can change in the industry.

This was the last forum thread created on the old black website. That was seven months ago

Good discussion. My 2 cents: I agree that it is sometimes necessary to jailbreak in order to get rid of the provider limitation. I live in Europe and I had to jailbreak due to T-mobile locked my 3G iPhone and I could not do anything about it, as I was given the phone from someone else. Right now with the world going mobile in things like credit cards etc., it is very dangerous to remove the control of Apple from the device and most people have no reason to do so. If you jailbreak and install pieces of software that you do not know what it does and for what reason, be sure that you have 100% chance that someone will try to steal from you. On the other hand, many people only want freedom and it is absolutely their right to be free and live without limitations serving oftentimes only for making extremely rich people even more rich. So jailbreaking in fact pushes Apple to do more innovation and remove the reasons to jailbreak, so in some respect it can have also positive effects for the users. Iphone is probably the best piece of hardware and removing limitation from Apple may help you to use it in a way that nobody else would, but remember when you do so, you are on your own and there is no protection from the big company, their watchdogs and their gunship that scares a lot of thieves away. Cheers, Frogman